To Get What We Want Means Doing This:

"Groagun" (groagun) 11/28/2013 at 15:08 • Filed to: None

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Today I read and article in Autocar, the British car magazine/website

Caterham SUV

This article reminded me of the uproar and consternation that enveloped the automotive world surrounding the launch of the Porsche Cayenne. Remember that? It was right in the middle of the SUV boom times and to a great many of us, the ugly, not just physically ugly but emotionally ugly, shot that killed Porsche for us as enthusiasts.

So here we are today, Caterham trying to distance themselves from any mention of building and selling a SUV and Porsche introducing their second in the form of the Macan.

If Ford, GM, MB or any other large conglomerate introduced a new SUV or even plans for a new one, no one would bat an eye. What's unique here, aside from Porsche actually being a part of a huge multinational conglomerate, is that both Porsche and Caterham are sports car makers, end of story!

We of the enthusiast persuasion have a real hard time seeing and accepting "trucks" from our beloved sports car makers. The Cayenne and Macan aren't real Porsche's, they're just re-badged Audi's. Right? You're not totally wrong but not totally right either, and in the explanation is the answer.

Yes, if you're about to purchase an Audi Q7, you are getting a Cayenne chassis and vice-verse. Many parts are shared between the two models and with good effect. I do not need to explain to the readers of Oppo why the VW group shares parts and platforms. I do, at times, seem to need to explain why the Cayenne, Macan and whatever the Caterham SUV/CUV will be called, need to exist.

In the picture in the heading is a collage of vehicles that make up the majority of cars the rest of the world buys. Having said that, I'm primarily talking about America and not Europe or Asia or anywhere else.

Your average 'Joe' who is married and has kids buys a mini van, SUV/CUV or a beige plain and boring four door family sedan. They make up %90 of the annual car buying public. Yes that means you and I as enthusiasts only make up the remaining %10.

That %10 still represents a fairly large number of cars sold and most people think you can run a profitable business just in that slice of the market. Well you can, if your product is fresh, as good as or better than the competition and your costs are kept under control. That's the big ONE, your cost to produce your goods.

I work in the auto industry and have for the past few years become intimate with the numbers and processes involved in producing a car from scratch. It's one of the most complicated things to do in the world, along with being time consuming and hugely expensive.

And that leads us to why Porsche and Caterham are and will produce SUV/CUV's. The category is a money maker, plain and simple. If you love the 911 you should be thanking the buyers of the Cayenne. They made it possible for you to buy and enjoy your sports car. The same will go for Caterham, a company who's entire portfolio is based on a car first produced in 1957. Yes, that says 1957!

So while I'm not a big fan of the SUV/CUV, I understand that they are the enablers for the sports cars of the world, for as long as we continue to build cars the same way Henry Ford did in 1911. That's a story for anther day: The changing technology behind the production of the car and the materials used.

I'm disappointed in Caterham today with this 'distancing'. Just be honest, in order to keep producing great sports cars, you have to look at other segments in the market, you know, the other %90. Really would it be so bad to have the Caterham DNA and phyilosipohy put into a SUV/CUV? It worked out for Porsche.

exizeo - still loving fourza > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 15:14

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I don't give a crap if Porsche wants to build a billion Macans/Pajuns, as long as they keep doing whatever they're doing in the Boxster/Cayman and 911.

Every time I see a GT3, I keep in mind that this car's funding came from soccer moms. I don't mind that, because it's because of that that us enthusiasts can ogle those supercars.

If suddenly the Cayenne and Panamera disappeared, the world WOULD be worse off. Why? Because they're Porsches money makers. Despite how "greedy" they are with Cayman options, it's those two that are the real money makers.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 15:26

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The Q7 is a dressed up Tuareg too? It looks a lot bigger.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 15:28

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There's a reasonable amount of wut in here.

F1guy hates duck billed F1 cars > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 15:33

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I agree 100% with this post (minus your usage of the "%" before the number)

Every time I see a Cayenne, I smile, because it's paying for the new 911, and that's great. The soccer moms are oblivious to it, but their husbands aren't.

A Caterham SUV? Ok, as long as the next 7 can climb walls.

Remarkably-Average-Avalon > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 15:37

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Sometimes an SUV is the best vehicle for the job if you have to haul things or live in a place where the weather isn't constantly sunny. And if you must have an SUV, it might as well be one that can perform. And Porsche and Caterham know a thing or two about performance.

Kate's Dirty Sister > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 15:40

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Lambo made a truck 30 years ago and we all still worship it.

I really don't care if Porsche is making suv's, as long they offer an insane version like the Cayenne GTS, it still fits the brand's mission.

Groagun > Remarkably-Average-Avalon 11/28/2013 at 15:42

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Totally agree

Groagun > F1guy hates duck billed F1 cars 11/28/2013 at 15:44

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The next 7 may be completely %100, sorry 100% different. Or sadly it may get cancelled all together. The exemption that allows Caterham to still build it for public road use is coming to an end.

Groagun > Kate's Dirty Sister 11/28/2013 at 15:47

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The point you make today was not so easy to make back when the Cayenne was first introduced. You are right and have the luxury of time on your side. I hope Caterham learns that lesson quickly.

J-Tenno > exizeo - still loving fourza 11/28/2013 at 15:50

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Don't forget the 918.

ZweiDeutschesAutos > Remarkably-Average-Avalon 11/28/2013 at 15:53

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But the Porsche SUV doesn't "perform" in the way you'd need an SUV to perform if you actually needed one to, you know, haul stuff around or drive through mud or whatever it is 99% of people who buy these hulking monsters pretend they need to do. It's a bauble for rich guys and gals, nothing else.

F1guy hates duck billed F1 cars > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 16:05

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Sorry for the "%" thing. Writer thing.

Why are they losing they losing their exemption?

Pitchblende > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 16:10

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I don't lament sports car makers branching out into other segments, all those ugly big things with Porsche badges fund all the pretty little things. What I do lament is when people pull out of the sports car segment. Show all the concepts you like, fellas, just actually build one once in a while.

Derek Kreindler > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 16:11

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Are you at all surprised? The auto industry is a business, not a charitable organization that makes cars for enthusiasts to covet (but not purchase). The sooner everyone approaches the automobile from that perspective, and realizes that the cars we really like are happy accidents, and not the baseline expectation, then we can move forward and stop whinging on the internet about biegekreigs and Camrys.

Edit: I didn't see that OP works in the auto industry. This should be elementary knowledge for you, and I'd say enthusiasts comprising 10 percent of the market is way too optimistic of a number.

fintail > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 16:13

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The Camry and woody minivan are at least not pretending to be something they aren't.

Groagun > F1guy hates duck billed F1 cars 11/28/2013 at 16:17

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It is a British law that was adopted years a go to grandfather road eligibility to special make cars and manufacturers. It was a protectionist law set up to allow small British manufacturers to allow them to keep selling road going versions of cars that sold in very small numbers. Companies like Caterham, Westfield and even Radical use the law to sell road legal cars.

There are limits to the law however: perimeters like number of cars sold is set to a specific amount and duration of sales period as well. The Caterham 7 is coming to it's end time before it needs to comply with new safety standards to be road eligible. I'm just not sure exactly when the clock strikes midnight, but it's very soon.

exizeo - still loving fourza > J-Tenno 11/28/2013 at 16:18

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And that, too. It's development could have only been funded by the Cayenne and Panamera.

Weirdly enough, I oddly like the Macan...it's wagonlike, and looks like a successor to the C5 allroad, even if its not. It's a lifted wagon.

Groagun > Derek Kreindler 11/28/2013 at 16:21

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Yeah 10% is too high, but we need to take whatever we can grab.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Kate's Dirty Sister 11/28/2013 at 16:37

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This made me think of the LM 002 but in my mind the Lamborghini is awesome and the new ones are boring. SO here's the twisted path my mind takes to get to that place: the LM 002 was made with a Countach V12 in it (very Lamborghini), was made to go off road (as SUVs are meant to) and just seems like a Lamborghini (read: bats hit insane). The new German SUVs are soft roaders that make seem like jaded money grabs. Now you can defend the money grab as being important to make whatever enthusiast car the company makes (911) but the vehicles themselves read as pandering to me, and that doesn't sit well. To further confuse the issue, and somehow pretend like the vehicles make sense in the 'sporty' manufacturers line ups, they through a shit tonne of parts at it to make it go like a performance vehicle, but they're cars that exist because of bean counters and are bought by, marketed to and created for (and just in general exist because of) people more concerned with badges than the cars under them.

Or at least that's how I see it.

Is it the end of Porsche or BMW as performance brands? To be honest I don't care, because both leave me cold, but probably not.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Derek Kreindler 11/28/2013 at 16:45

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I'm an enthusiast, not an accountant. If your favourite team started getting rid of the best players because they figured it was a better business plan to have rookies and old players a couple years from heading out to pasture, and they figure the fans will hold on for a couple more years so people can make money off of them, the fans would bitch and complain. As a fan of cars, part of what I do is complain, the other part is get really excited about the great cars that companies put out. If car companies make obvious, shitty cash grabs I'll point and say 'those execs are making obvious, shitty cash grabs." If, on the other hand, a couple enthusiasts inside the brand get together and make something awesome, I will say, "that mark made an awesome car." Two sides of the same passion.

shitheelandtoe > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 16:45

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I just want to have any car that has Caterham "phyilosipohy" in it. I bet that would make the bajoomberooners turn really fast.

pfftballer > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 16:49

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Weren't they also working on some silly motorbikes too not long ago? I don't see this happening. They don't have the ability to build a car company from the ground up and make a daily driver on par with the best of what we already have out there. No doubt they're sick of people not buying their cars because they are impractical, but my uninformed gut feeling on this one is that this won't go well for them. What have they ever designed and built that enjoyed success? Nothing, that's what, they bought the Seven from Lotus. It isn't going to happen folks.

scudgelthorpe > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 16:52

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To get over disliking the Cayenne, drive the Cayenne Turbo in anger

done

yeast > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/28/2013 at 17:00

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Soft roaders?

Groagun > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/28/2013 at 17:09

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You echo the sentiments of a lot of people who read this site but that is why I put the information about how manufacturers build cars and the processes involved in designing, building and selling a car of any sort. It's a much bigger question than just the perceived integrity of a Porsche or Lamborghini.

As I said, that is a post for another day but I'm with you on Porsche at least, just really doesn't excite me. I respect them but doesn't lite a fire in my nether region.

Groagun > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/28/2013 at 17:12

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I applaud your enthusiasm but, it's those 'cash grab jobs' that pay for your awesome car. That's all I'm saying.

Groagun > pfftballer 11/28/2013 at 17:19

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You're right and that is why they are looking into partnerships with large companies like Nissan/Renault through the Alpine badge. No they can't go it on their own: not enough cash and not enough talent, man power I mean.

I can tell from personal and first hand experience that Caterham has had at least one legitimate offer for partnership that would have seen them grow the business dramatically and professionally. They turned it down, or more appropriately, ignored it.

There are no guarantees it would have worked but the plan was solid and really ego and politics got in the way.

Kursa > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 17:24

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This reminds me of Ferrari, back when Enzo was still running things Ferrari sold cars as fodder to make money to go faster around Monza in their Formula One cars, and Enzo outright said he despised the people who bought his road cars, even the F40. But he needed them to buy his cars so he could keep pumping cash into F1 development.

The same can be said about SUV's being sold as a financial backing to real performance cars, lets face it, without the Cayanne, we wouldn't have the dozens of 911 variants we have.

Weather and Darkness > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 17:28

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that's even more depressing

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 17:36

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To a certain extent, yeah. I mean, Caterham probably not building the SUV to fund more sevens, but in order to grow and line pockets. That may, though, result in some awesome cars, I admit. But, to say that I mustn't be grumpy when a car maker when a car maker disowns everything you love about it in favour of money is taking a strange view of the meaning of fandom, is what I'm saying.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > yeast 11/28/2013 at 17:39

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YOu can make a 1.3l Samurai do that as well with the right parts, but I don't think anyone considers a stock Samurai anything but a hairdresser's car.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 17:46

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But don't you think the perceived integrity of a brand is important. That's my one, legitimate, non-fanboi gripe with the moves a lot of car makers are making. BMW is where it is today because of its history in motorsport. Honda is what it is because the Civic was seen, once upon a time, as the car to have. There are people who would have an Integra Type-R over a Porsche, and became fans of Honda because of that. By branding out with vehicles that have nothing to do with their brand I honestly think they are doing damage to their brand. Now maybe that won't hurt in the short run, but i think it will hurt them if they continue. Every car bought, except perhaps for the cheapest, is a decision made in the least logical way. We buy Porsches, Land Rover, Jaguars and the rest because of what it says about us. But if the brand no longer says anything will people be willing to spend $5,000 on an extra Porsche crest on their 911? But maybe I'm completely wrong and they'll do well; I'm not business analyst.

Ger > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 17:52

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Its a matter of consumer perception and marketing.

The Cayenne would not have sold so well if the 911 didn't exist. But having the Cayenne and now the made in china Macan; rebranded Audi/VWs, brings the overall perception of Porsche as a brand closer to those with full lineups (ie away from sportscars and closer to your typical perceived luxury brand like Mercedes, Lexus, and Lincoln).

Then again, Porsche needs to capitalize on that perception while it lasts so they can buy back majority share of VW and make billions. Or ruin their brand in the process.

gilcasanova > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 18:21

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So, that means that Porsche SUV buyers are posers? I guess so, or they'd be perfectly happy with a Q7 or a Touareg.

'I don't have the balls to have a sports car, but I still want something Porsche'. I guess these make percentage of the car buying public that never stopped being children. And we all have to pay for that.

Sweet capitalism.

Groagun > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/28/2013 at 18:22

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Haha

Simplecar > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 18:31

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Really insightful article. I would like to know if you have any sort of proof for the claim that enthusiasts make up 10% of the car buying public. Too optimistic in my opinion.

That said, whether Caterham make the SUV or not, only future will tell. However, I have a bone to pick with Porsche. If they are making a bulk of their money from their SUV's, then they should definitely make their sports cars as pure as they get. I am made to understand that they put an EPS in their 997 since they were unable to meet the mpg or emissions target. Is this true? Are there no alternative routes or did they exhaust all their options? Otherwise, the car is damn good!

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 18:49

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personally, I don't see the Cayenne being Porsche's "sell out" car. I like it more than the coxter and the cayman, in fact!
Yes, it's bigger, bulkier, more practical, and less fun on a twisty road, but it is still set up to be the Porsche of SUV's.
it's one of the cars on my "own one day" list, and ya know what? no other Porsche, other than a 911 4s is on there at the moment!

Groagun > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/28/2013 at 18:52

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Don't doubt yourself, your absolutely right. Honda is a great example. Again I have some personal hands on experience with this company and there were/are lots of reasons it has taken a beating over the last 5-10 years.

One of the primary reasons was, to be politically incorrect, too many Chiefs, not enough Indians. For a time I was truly the low man on the totem pole and at one event in particular I had 6 different bosses to answer too. All told me what to do, all told me different things and of course it contradicted what the guy had said previously. It's a bit of a stretch given my and the particular events circumstances, but that practice permeated the whole company from top to bottom.

The second reason, Honda was and is deathly afraid of changing or altering in any way, the formula that has made it successful to date. I mean, the Civic and Accord change very little over time because it's so successful. Don't mess with a good thing.

Sounds like good advice until time is up, your competitors pass you by and no one cares anymore. That is what happened to Honda. The Accord is such a hit and has such a huge following that you fear turning your customers off and messing with a great thing.

Porsche to their credit, hasn't done that. They still produce and sell some of the best sports cars you can buy and still race at almost every level manageable, at least in series that matter, and provide cars to those who want to go it alone anywhere in any series in the world.

So Honda may fit your negative outlook, I don't mean you have a negative outlook, but Porsche fits your positive outlook and even while producing ugly SUV's, is still sticking to it's core principal of sports cars.

Groagun > Kursa 11/28/2013 at 18:53

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Exactly

Goofnik > exizeo - still loving fourza 11/28/2013 at 18:55

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Not just the GT3, but the next Cayman R and Boxster Spyder (which will only look worse than the 918 Spyder) will also be funded by soccer moms and executives.

The more boring stuff lets them make more fun sports cars. As a result, and as someone with a deposit towards a 2015 Cayman GTS (once its announced) I continue to welcome it.

Groagun > Ger 11/28/2013 at 18:56

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I like your angle, remind me to write about the politics and financial considerations of these moves. I know it can be boring to some but it's those aspects that make this business run and the stories and practices are fascinating.

Groagun > Simplecar 11/28/2013 at 19:13

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Are you talking about the 'Electronic Power Steering' system on the 991 generation 911, the latest and greatest? If so, then this gets into territory that even the enthusiasts don't really like to talk or read about.

I'm no engineer but I do have direct knowledge and understanding of what it takes to 'engineer' a car and most of it's components. It's a time consuming and very complex conversation.

The other aspect you tackle is the government regulation side of the equation. The VW group and all major manufacturers build their cars to the toughest world standards they can achieve. Evey country is different so you take the hardest and engineer to that standard. It's a very long and complicated process that employes 100's to 1000's of people in their respective companies.

Groagun > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 11/28/2013 at 19:18

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I just hate how ugly it was, the new generation is better, The Panamera though, I simply cannot accept! By no means is the Cayenne a 'sell out' car. I think you hit the nail on the head, not every one wants a sports car so why not produce a SUV/CUV but install the Porsche DNA and racing attributes?

If you or anyone wants a Cayenne I say buy it and enjoy it: I would never tell you not to buy one if it's what you love. The Panamera on the other hand!

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 19:21

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the Panamera's a "meh" car for me. Even though i'm not a fan of the style, I have to say I do seriously respect the potency of it's performance.:D

jalop1991 > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/28/2013 at 19:31

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The new German SUVs are soft roaders that make seem like jaded money grabs.

You say that like it's dirty or something. Why is that?

You're coming across with the very mistaken idea that somehow, sports car companies are fairy dust unicorn entities with the sole obligation of making you feel good about yourself and acting only in whatever sense of "purity" you define. Said companies making money is antithetical to your mistaken goals, and therefore they must stop making this dirty money.

I have news for you: they're in business to make money. Period. If the world at large decided that Porsche should stop making 911s and start making maxipads, and if the profits showed that, guess what Porsche would do? Yeah.

Porsche doesn't give a shit what fairy dust unicorn thoughts you think. The only thing they give a shit about is hard cash. Soccer moms have it, and are willing to give it to Porsche. It's really a very simple equation. It's not "jaded" at all for Porsche to do exactly what it is they are chartered to do: make money.

Why you (and others) have a problem with that, I don't know. But it sure seems like you're disconnected from reality.

jalop1991 > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/28/2013 at 19:38

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But don't you think the perceived integrity of a brand is important.

It isn't what I think, it's what Porsche thinks. And they are making money hand over fist doing what they're doing, and no doubt have calculated the current way of doing business against the fairy dust unicorn concept of "maintaining brand integrity".

VW tried, and failed, to convince the world that spending $50K on a Passat was rational. So instead they've discovered that they can sell a Touareg for $150K as long as it has the Porsche logo on it—and they make shit-tons (or shit-tonnes) of money doing so. Their other choice is not to make the Touareg with the Porsche log on it and leave all that money on the table—and that ain't gonna happen.

And where exactly does any of this touch the 911? Why, solely inside your mind, nowhere else. Any "loss of brand identity" is merely your fucked-up mind screwing things up inside itself.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > jalop1991 11/28/2013 at 19:46

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And that's companies. However, most people who love cars have ideas about the 'soul' of the car or the 'soul' of the company; we're silly creatures like that, in much the same way that sports fans will follow a team regardless of who plays on the team. It's kind of a human thing. We like to think the companies are as passionate about the cars as we are, so if a car company betrays that trust, whether it's there or as real as fairies, I will bitch about it. What I'm saying is don't come on a car site that is passionate about cars and expect people not to bitch about something they are passionate about. Companies are all awful and will stab loyal customers in the back for short term profit, I get that. But if I start to talk about car companies I tell myself a little fable: car companies aren't like other companies. I realize I have those rose coloured spectacle on, but so do fans of most things.

tapzz > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 19:53

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That's a story for anther day: The changing technology behind the production of the car and the materials used.

But isn't that at the heart of the story, though? I'd say that the Caterham, unlike Porsche, is a real bespoke low volume manufacturer. Most of the really spendy components like the drivetrain come from random other vendors, and the rest can only be used on a Seven, not a crossover.

Given the scale and economics of producing Sevens - some of which are kits! -, producing crossovers is pretty much like starting another business that just happens to share a name and logo. Unless, of course, they move the production of both the Seven and the crossover to something like Gordon Murray's iStream process.

nikiaf27 > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 19:53

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I'd have to argue that the panamera is their sellout car. Good god is that thing awful.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > jalop1991 11/28/2013 at 19:54

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You really are passionate about how companies make money. Porsche, like many other companies, is fallible. Much like I am. GM pissed away it's good will. Honda may be doing the same Toyota seen fit to try to get a bit back with the FT86. Image is everything. No one buys a new Porsche for any reason other than they want to be aligned with the brand. That's the only way you can get someone to buy a car that goes that fast, even though they have no intention of using it. It's the same reason people buy Land Rovers. Every luxury brand is selling image. If the brand dilutes the image or changes it in ways that do not reflect the people it caters to, it will fail. That is what I am saying – if Porsche become an expensive VW that also sells the odd 911, the cars will lose their cache and people will stop paying the money. It's not a fairy dust concept, it's the reason people buy from luxury brands.

Zipppy, Mazdurp builder, Probeski owner and former ricerboy > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 19:55

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A light and sporty CUV with a small engine? might be something I'd be interested in.

Groagun > tapzz 11/28/2013 at 20:10

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You have no idea how right and interesting your comment is. Your absolutely right about 'starting a whole new business'. The primary focus of this post was on the 'enthusiasts' perception of what it means for a company like Porsche to produce SUV's and Caterham to try and distance themselves from the rumors, which are totally true by the way.

The other half of the coin is the way in which we manufacture and the materials used in that process. They most certain are bound together but one thing at a time.

Gothmog3VZ - Twin AW11's > Remarkably-Average-Avalon 11/28/2013 at 20:32

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I agree with your first point, but you don't need an SUV for snow. I got by perfectly fine last winter with my 89 MR2, in spite of some of the heaviest snowfalls Montreal has ever seen. Yes, my old Explorer was more capable, had two more driven wheels, and could haul 3 more people, but the MR2 never got stuck, in spite of me taking it out and going drifting in every damn snowstorm we had (except the last one, which had me driving downtown for class on a Friday morning). It's more about the tires you have, and your skill as a driver.

But for hauling, I agree with you fully. I miss having more cargo-space than a shoebox...

truebeliever > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 20:38

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The Cayenne is without a doubt a Porsche. Best premium SUV/SAV on the market. Drives like a sports car that when outfitted with offroad tires could go anywhere a G-Wagen or Range Rover could faster and more comfortably. If I could afford anything, It would be a Cayenne GTS with a designated set of snow tires on separate rims. The first generation weren't pretty but were and are great trucks.

Kylemaro > Kate's Dirty Sister 11/28/2013 at 20:40

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i wish they still did, also nice name dude

jalop1991 > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/28/2013 at 20:45

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You really are passionate about how companies make money.

No, I'm realistic. I'm under no false impression that Porsche or any other corporation makes any move that is not specifically designed or thought to maximize profits.

If they thought that presenting the face of "a company with a soul" or "we have only products with soul" would maximize their profits, then that's what they would do. But they don't think that, so they do what they think does maximize profits.

You apparently want Porsche to have one image. Porsche has decided that they can maximize profits by having another image. Funny thing—the two images are not mutually exclusive. You, however, seem to think that any hint of selling SUVs to families by definition destroys whatever image you've decided is the only "correct" one.

Tell you what: you start a company "with a soul" and sell the image you want. Or just go to Porsche and tell them how they're "doing it all wrong".

If you think that fairy dust unicorns exist, well, all I can say is you're wrong.

boxrocket > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 21:41

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One may also consider the flip side of this: you have legions of "soccer moms" and the like who are now excited that they own a vehicle from a premium marque (whether or not that marque's SUV's existence is diluting the brand), and once at that level of acquisition, will seek to repeat it or even move up to higher levels, e.g. going from an X5 to a Porsche to perhaps the on-again/off-again Bentley SUV, helping multiple brands in the process.

Now if only we could find a way to make them buy Volvos and Mazdas...

TwoWheelsAmazing > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 21:47

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Why can't Caterham just build a sport sedan instead of going full retard with an SUV/CUV.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > jalop1991 11/28/2013 at 22:23

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There is an old maxim among the carmakers: race on Sunday sell on Monday. These wins are the airy fairy unicorn dust. They do this to create a 'soul' for the brand, because people don't buy products, especially luxury products; they buy ideas – they buy brands. You can make a civic beat a stock 911 on the track, but the balding men going through mid-life crisis don't tune up civics. Why? Because they're buying the same fairy dust. 2000GTs go for a million dollars because of fairy dust. Muscle cars are still big money because of fairy dust. The only reason V12s exist is because of fairy dust. Hell, the only reason anyone cares about cars is fairy dust. Now, Porsche, and you, might be right. Maybe having more Porsche SUVs on the road will not affect how people think of them. They're paid a lot and are highly trained to think this through. But highly paid, highly trained people have made company killing choices before. So, I criticized them. It's an enthusiast website, it's what we do. Ever go to a hockey game and listen to the people in the stands yell at their favourite player? Do you tell them to shut up to?

As for what I want from Porsche: nothing. The cars leave me cold, but there has been a lot of talk about new cars losing their soul, and I agree, so I chimed in.

That being said, the way you post seems more aimed at calling people idiots and making yourself seem smarter than it does at creating a conversation. It's off-putting and does little to get your point across. So, I'm done. You think Porsche can do no wrong, that's fine. I don't. We can both have our opinions and watch the fallout on the global stage: maybe you'll be right, maybe I will be.

jalop1991 > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/28/2013 at 22:39

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but don't you feel rather weird telling the money machine that is Porsche that "you're doing it all wrong"?

I think your complaint is with the world, with the outside world, with the 99.9% of the world that (a) aren't enthusiasts the way you think of an enthusiast, and (b) do have money and like to show it off and like to buy their "enthusiast" credentials straight from the factory.

In other words, I think you're pining for the days long gone. I will now get off your lawn.

Stef Schrader > Groagun 11/28/2013 at 22:42

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Caterhams make awesome racecars. As do Porsches.

Racecars—barring a few road-legal exceptions (that rules)—need tow vehicles.

I don't mind this SUV trend. Just make it useful, give it some good tow capacity, and don't make it just a glorified mommywagon with a fancy badge. The Cayenne and Macan hit the mark. Hopefully Caterham's would, too.

Groagun > TwoWheelsAmazing 11/28/2013 at 23:50

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"Full Retard", funny but not funny. They can, it just seems the SUV/CUV market is very hot right now and shows no sign of slowing down. The other factor to consider is that while you may live in an established automotive market, ie America/UK or some other first world country, China is the big play here and the BRIC nations in general.

SUV's/CUV's are hot sellers in those nations and are key to future growth and success. I share your hope though the sedan may come out before the CUV. Just imagine a modern Cortina or Carlton.

klurejr > Kate's Dirty Sister 11/28/2013 at 23:59

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I would drive that Lamborghini SUV everywhere if I had one.

Adam > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 00:37

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But what I don't get is that Porsche is the sportscar brand of the VW group. Why does the sportscar brand need to make SUVs? That's the part I don't get. Saying that Porsche SUVs are needed to support Porsche sports cars ignores the fact that VW could just use Audi SUVs to support Porsche sportscars. It's all the same in the end... right? What's the point of even having brands if they are all the same? Didn't GM show how it was bad to just badge engineer everything?

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > jalop1991 11/29/2013 at 00:41

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A) no, we're all human and we all make mistakes. I think polite criticism, which I try for, is always good, whether someone chooses to take it or not, and wether it's good or not. It helps you to understand your own way of thinking and see both the cracks and strengths of it.

B)You're at least half right. I'm a purist and if I had a pipe or a walking stick I would be shaking it at auto execs and rich people and explaining to them what enthusiasts did in my day. However, I still think brand is important, because people want to align themselves with interesting things. Take a look at the soccer mom exodus from boring minivans to 'exciting', 'go anywhere' SUVs. It's all perception

C)thank you for vacating my lawn. I'll now return my shotgun to the side of my rocking chair, pickup my jar of bourbon and go back to muttering about kids these days.

Edit: I realise I said I was done earlier, but your last post seemed more conversational and drew me back in.

glasairIII > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 01:25

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And your understanding of the financial choices of automakers is revealed in your explication "%90."

Automakers, normally, have to make money over a broad swath of appeal to the motoring public.

The 90% who buy cars. Not %90.

Grasp financials, grasp reality. Your grasp is editorially loose. I'm guessing so otherwise.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/29/2013 at 02:19

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I can assure you the Cayenne will embarrass almost anything off-road...it seems there is a lot of misguided hate towards these cars because shockingly, people still don't realize how capable they are.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 02:20

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Thank you. Someone that gets it.

Simplecar > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 03:10

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Oops.. I messed up the numbers. Yes, I meant the 991. Had a chance to sit in one recently, and I was impressed. Of course, this was the first 911 I sat in.. so I am no expert whether it is the greatest. Didn't drive it, so cannot comment on the steering. I just want to know this: if they do make their bulk of revenue from their SUV range, I would atleast make their flagship product, as good and pure for the target market. Although I have never driven any 911 to claim that I know anything about them, but to me atleast a hydraulic power steering is something which shouldn't be compromised until all other options are exhausted. That's why I wanted to know if you know, whether Porsche took this step as a last resort maybe? I don't blame them for taking the plunge, but I just need to know whether all other options were explored or not.

Just to give you a glimpse of how my thoughts are: Currently, I have 2 ford's at home; the mk5 (with HPS) and mk7 fiesta (with EPS). Now, the mk7 fiesta's EPS is a really nice steering, and in normal day to day use, I am really not bothered. However, when I do drive the car nearer to the limits, the steering feel is artificial to me. There is something missing which somehow I still cannot put my finger on... it feels toy-like in feel when driven at the limits. Whenever I drive the mk5 fiesta, it is a joy to drive it at the limits.

d3v > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 03:56

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When I read "Caterham SUV", I immediately thought about a Willy's Jeep style deal with a Caterham Seven front end. And yes, I got a boner while thinking about it.

ThatbastardKurtis > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/29/2013 at 05:01

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I like the new Porsche Bacon (Macan) Turbo, damn it! And nothing you can say can deter me, besides, everything is better with Bacon (Macan) on it, including a Turbo SUV that may never see a dirt road in it's life.

***Which one is thicker and more quality, American Bacon or German Bacon?

Fdor > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 07:30

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I completely agree with the appearance of the Porsche SUV/CUV vehicles. They tried to use sports car styling on a CUV/SUV and it simply does not work. The thing looks hideous ... like you gave a Porsche 911 steroids and it just got fat and bloated.

TheContradiktion > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/29/2013 at 07:52

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Caterham isn't UNICEF mate, if there isn't money to line investor pockets investors will leave. This isn't anything like a sports team pruning it's all star players to save cash. This is a fan-favorite sports team full of lovable old dogs and charming rookies that can't place better than 30th in a championship, and they've decided to go out and hire a few all-stars so that there is still a team for the lovable old dogs and charming rookies to play on. Without these vehicles these marques will get cut, plain and simple. You saw how close Lotus came to the axe recently, how many reprieves have they gotten from the gallows? Would you really want Porsche ot Caterham going there just to safeguard the appearance, I cannot stress this enough, THE APPEARANCE of brand dilution?

Groagun > Adam 11/29/2013 at 07:55

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You answered your own question Adam. GM did show the world how not to do it with multiple brands but it differs slightly from the VW Group case. So in the GM case, Chevy, GMC, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile and even Saturn all occupied and competed in the exact same market segments.

That worked for decades when competition was really only Ford and Chrysler. As Honda, Toyota and Nissan entered the market, it changed and truly introduced new competition to the market and a real and tangible difference to the market. Also, starting in the 1950's came the European brands and they steadily gained market share to what we have today.

Other factors also contributed to the downfall of the big 3 but what real differentiation was there between the badges at GM? People noticed and decided that the product wasn't as good as it's competitors and moved away from the brand.

Now in retrospect we can look objectively at the whole company and see clearly the unsustainable business model that made up GM. Ran by old dogs who didn't know any other way, they just kept doing things the same way. Basically GM tried to be all things to all people throughout the entire range, portfolio and individual companies.

Now in the VW Group some of those attributes exist. Maybe the best example currently is the VW Up, also badged a Seat Mii and Skoda Citigo. In the markets where the car is sold you will always get the VW version: in some markets you get one or the other from Seat or Skoda and in certain markets you get all three.

The very same questions about badge engineering are being asked of the VW Group and they encountered some resistance. The VW Group though as an entire entity is quite different from GM back in the day.

The group has Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Seat, Skoda and VW in the average car market and MAN, Scania and VW Commercial in the large truck market: plus Ducati for those of us who care.

You understand that all of the badges are different. Some are closer than others but for the most part, each hold a unique and distinct place in the market. Really VW is trying to be all things to all people. They are going about it in a smarter way however.

One thing they do right is to put up separation between the brands in the practice of maintaining individual identity and uniqueness. While many parts and components are shared, along with engineering talent, each marque operates on it's own as a separate business. Those 'lose walls' between companies shields them from adversely affecting the others in the event of troubled times.

So to answer your question, no, Audi can't just be the one to sell SUV's and then send those profits to Porsche so they can build 911's. Porsche must stand on it's own and create it's own profits, with help from the group of course.

Groagun > d3v 11/29/2013 at 07:56

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Photoshop me something if you can.

TrackRatMk1 > Simplecar 11/29/2013 at 08:12

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While I don't have the links in front of me, SEMA's reports are some of the most thorough on the enthusiast side of the auto industry and they place the number between 8-10% of car buyers that ID themselves as enthusiasts.

To your point about Cayennes and Panameras being the biggest boon to Porsches income statement, combined they make up about 60% of P sales. http://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/…
Boxster/Cayman/911 the other 40%.

TrackRatMk1 > Simplecar 11/29/2013 at 08:20

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EPS is just one of many ways Porsche is eeking out every fraction of an MPG from their cars. Many studies show that EPS is good for 1/2 to 1 mpg overall. These numbers are critical to reaching future CAFE standards in the US, as well as those in other countries. Building SUVs and sedans also help them meet these regs bc they can use alt powertrains (hybrid/diesel) across more models. Meeting regs is just part of the R&D though. Keeping costs down and improving variability while sharing the most components between cars is key. They can use similar EPS units in many cars while tweaking the feel and feedback electronically. Sucks but what's a company to do? I'm just happy they still make the best sports cars in their segments.

TrackRatMk1 > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 08:28

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For an epic rant on the Porsche traditionalist side, see http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/avoida… .

The topic seems to be quite contentious, and generated very informed comments on both sides if the argument. Highly recommend this post (and the comments) for all Porsche enthusiasts.

Groagun > Simplecar 11/29/2013 at 08:35

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A few things I can tell you about Porsche. They have some of the worlds best engineers working for them. Their cars are engineered to the ends of the Earth. No stone is left unturned before it hits the show room floor. Most importantly, and most controversial, Porsche is in the pursuit of perfection, speed and technology.

That last one is most important and most recently exemplified in the 991 GT3. That is where the hotly debated question of Electric Steering is being debated. That and the PDK gear box which all amount to the GT3 moving from the stripped out purist's car to the tech geeks rocket.

In the specific case of the GT3 I fall on the stripped out purist side of the argument. That is what that exact model is supposed to be, and now it's not. Electric Steering doesn't scare me, I'm not opposed to it, nor am I a hater of the PDK. Again, just in the unique and specific GT3 model, I don't think they should exist.

Having said that, Porsche believes that the advantages of the various new engineered systems is what is best and what will sell. There is no doubt the GT3 991 version is faster and 'better' than the outgoing 997 version, even the 4.0 liter.

I would agree for the Carrera2/4, Turbo, GT2 and other model variants, all except the GT3, Electric Steering, the PDK and other new engineered advancements are great. A Porsche is a Porsche is a Porsche. They are always going to be fast, always handle well, always be desirable, always be better than the last, usually.

In the case of the GT3, I think they took a step backwards. It is the one that should be raw and unfettered. As close to race spec for the road as you can get. I'm not technology adverse in any way, the car should be better and in most regards is.

The GT3 shouldn't be a car for everyone or just anyone. It should be difficult to drive, it should take time to learn and master. That sadly, is gone from the GT3. It's Nurburgring time is better and quite frankly, so what!

zipfuel > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 09:17

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I think the first 'new' TVR needs to be a SUV, they'd sell thousands on the exhaust note alone and prevent the company going bankrupt yet again.

Simplecar > TrackRatMk1 11/29/2013 at 09:50

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Thanks a lot. I do not doubt the fact that Porsche's major chunk of revenue comes from the SUV range. I did doubt the fact that enthusiasts constitute 8-10% of the car buying public. That is something which I am still not convinced about. You see, even among the enthusiasts, there are going to be divided opinions. I may be a SUV enthusiast and you may be a hot hatch enthusiast. So, in a segment wise scenario, the number seems a too optimistic to me. I have not gone through the SEMA reports, and don't want to either, so will just take your word on this one. Thanks, once again.

A-J-I > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 10:35

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I think people are often too precious about car brands. Porsche purists are particularly bad - everything that isn't a 911 is shot down by many, and even those have been on thin ice since they went water-cooled...

But as you say, certain stuff just makes more money. And for me at least, the cash cows don't harm the reputation of the brand building them. It's not like Porsche gave up making 911s to make the Cayenne or Macan - they just made them as well .

If a crossover spins a bigger profit for Caterham, I'm all for it. They can keep churning out Sevens (including ones with cool kei-car engines like the latest offering) and make loads of money from SUVs on the side. Suits me.

But going back to my original point, I'm not that precious about brands. I've always liked Porsches that purists despise - the 914, the 924, the original Boxster, the Cayenne. And I'd certainly have a new Macan diesel alongside a 356 in my dream garage...

Derek Kreindler > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 11/29/2013 at 11:14

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You can point all you want, what matters is if you actually buy something or not.

exizeo - still loving fourza > Goofnik 11/29/2013 at 12:03

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Yeah, why not. The last 987 Cayman R and Boxster Spyder were brutal beasts, to say the least. If trophy wives/soccer moms continue eating up the Panameras, I'll cheer along with them.

And frankly, the Panamera GTS isn't that bad. Ugly, maybe, but quick as heck. Maybe it'll bring excitement to an executive's life.

Congrats on the GTS, by the way! The most I'll probably ever be able to do is a stripped Cayman S...

Shanghai61 > Groagun 11/29/2013 at 22:25

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Just what the world needs, another Sport Futility Vehicle* ...

*Copyright P. J. O'Rourke

Groagun > A-J-I 11/29/2013 at 22:44

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I personally like the 944 Turbo.

BigBlock440 > jalop1991 11/30/2013 at 19:02

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So how do you feel about Lincoln, Cadillac or Chrysler? Do they hold the prestige they once had, or did they "do it right" by making money hand over fist diluting the brand in the '80's and '90's? What if Bentley or Rolls Royce started making $20k sedans, would people still pay a premium for the badge? That is the Porsche argument, that SUVs are the Cimarron of Porsche.

jalop1991 > BigBlock440 11/30/2013 at 20:43

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The difference is, Lincoln et al. went completely over to saying "screw the product, let's milk the name we've created until the milk is all gone"—with ALL their products. Then they were stuck. Honda's been doing the same thing for several years now, and one day they'll wake up to the same realization.

As long as Porsche keeps building the 911, though, and doesn't try to increase profits by leveraging the name and cheapening the product while keeping the price up, they'll be fine.

BigBlock440 > jalop1991 12/01/2013 at 14:49

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Fair argument.